US Aviation - Aviation Message Boards > US Airways to Begin New York-San Juan Service

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Ch. 12

Jul 17 2003, 02:37 AM

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030717/dcth017_1.html

Talk about jumping into the fire. True...this service is N/S from LGA rather than JFK and is more convenient to the city, but with 2 low fare carriers with a major presence on this route and a major that seems willing to defend it at any cost, is this really the right thing to do?

LavMan

Jul 17 2003, 01:43 AM

Watch another mainline city going to express to free up planes.

dfw79

Jul 17 2003, 02:38 AM

If the mainline city that will be closing will allow US to increase stage lengths for routes such as LGA-SJU, go for it. US needs to get out of this short hop, northeast market with the larger jets. Switch them over to RJs and let the bigger planes fly further to help bring the costs down. IOW, time to revert back to the US or should I say Allegheny of old - small jets on short hops. Sure it is going to mean some 15-20+ year employees throw bags or ripping tickets for a couple mainline flights a day are going to have to be let go, but let''s be honest...if the company stuck with the business plan of the last 10 years they might have well just Chapter 7''nd the whole thing and moved on. Instead, it looks like the company actually has a plan for how they want to proceed and they are executing it.

LavMan

Jul 17 2003, 01:56 AM

The longer you fly an airplane the more money it makes, an RJ on a % basis cost more to operate then a mainline plane, and one flight a week is not gonna add to the bottom line when AA and Jetblue fly multiple flights a day from an airport 30 minutes away.

dfw79

Jul 17 2003, 03:03 AM

Of course RJs cost more, they have fewer seats. However, US Airways is finally going to match capacity with demand which will hopefully allow them to retain some decent yeilds. Flying mainline jets on extremely short hops isn''t going to make the company any money. This isn''t Southwest...and it never will be like Southwest. So the next best thing is to rationalize the airline. Get the short hop flying moved over to the RJs and move the bigger jets back to medium to long range flying.

Sure LGA-SJU may not rack in tons of cash since it is only one flight a week, but if it is profitable then it does add to the bottom line - every penny counts. So if they can pull the planes out of cities that are costing the company millions a month in turn to make a couple hundred thousand on another route, why not?

MarkMyWords

Jul 17 2003, 04:06 AM

LavMan -
What you have to realize to is that the lowest fare from LGA-SJU is 498.00 round trip. Compare that to LGA-BUF at 268.00, LGA-RDU at 300.00, LGA-PIT at 248.00 and the Shuttle weekend fare of 170.00. There is a lot of money to be made in the islands, and they are not destinations that you can drive to versus most of the short hops. Think about your last airport experience. The time it takes to check-in, check a bag, go through screening, get to the gate, board, deplane, get to baggage claim, get your bag, get your rental car, etc. If you had a choice of driving 300 miles or flying, which would you choose? Especially if it took you just as long either way, but driving was less hassle. That is why we need to pull away from the short haul flying and get into more long haul flying. BOS service started out as Sat only and will be going to daily service, if the market is there for LGA-SJU service you can look for it to go daily some day too.

LavMan

Jul 17 2003, 04:56 AM

JetBlue fare is $280.80 and AA is the same price, all ready we are more then our competitors who offer numerous flights every day from JFK-SJU.

MarkMyWords

Jul 17 2003, 04:55 AM

And if we can get the 498.00 and fill the airplane, where is the problem?

LavMan

Jul 17 2003, 05:54 AM

People will go to JFK and save the $100+ and have more options, I don''t think they will fill the plane with those fares, most of it will probably be cruise deals.

Diesel8

Jul 17 2003, 05:55 AM

Not a problem, except you just pi$$ed of AA. Things could get very interesting!

N628AU

Jul 17 2003, 07:09 AM

----------------
On 7/17/2003 8:07:54 AM Ch. 12 wrote:

http://biz.yahoo.com/prnews/030717/dcth017_1.html

Talk about jumping into the fire. True...this service is N/S from LGA rather than JFK and is more convenient to the city, but with 2 low fare carriers with a major presence on this route and a major that seems willing to defend it at any cost, is this really the right thing to do?

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JetBlue and who else is a LCC on this route?

This is a good move. More longhaul.

Lavman,

Please see my previous postings in other threads regarding falling into the trap of "the RJ costs more to fly". While it is technically true, it does not work in reality.

ITRADE

Jul 17 2003, 06:39 AM

Ahem, ahem. To all those that were giving me grief and all sorts of crap when I suggested that it would be a good idea for US to begin service from LGA to SJU...

BITE ME!

Thank you very much.

mbmbbost

Jul 17 2003, 06:54 AM

Ch. 12

Jul 17 2003, 06:50 AM

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On 7/17/2003 12:39:54 PM N628AU wrote:

JetBlue and who else is a LCC on this route?

This is a good move. More longhaul.

----------------

Spirit from LGA (not N/S but still a chunk of the pie). Longhaul is good but not when you''re pitting a HCC (High Cost Carrier) against LLCs already established and with a marketing presence in the O&D. Not to mention entering into direct competetion with the largest of all carriers that has proven time and time again that it cherishes it''s niches (SJU and NYC being 2 of them) and will do all that it can legally get away with (and then some) to keep the odds in its favor.

And with one flight a week, it makes it the easiest of targets for competitors interested in keeping new entrants out of the market. The existing carriers only have to spoil their yields on one day, on flight and US is going to have to compete with the loss-leader fares. Bad move.

ITRADE

Jul 17 2003, 07:22 AM

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On 7/17/2003 1:29:13 PM Ch. 12 wrote:

----------------
On 7/17/2003 12:39:54 PM N628AU wrote:

JetBlue and who else is a LCC on this route?

This is a good move. More longhaul.

----------------

Spirit from LGA (not N/S but still a chunk of the pie). Longhaul is good but not when you''re pitting a HCC (High Cost Carrier) against LLCs already established and with a marketing presence in the O&D. Not to mention entering into direct competetion with the largest of all carriers that has proven time and time again that it cherishes it''s niches (SJU and NYC being 2 of them) and will do all that it can legally get away with (and then some) to keep the odds in its favor.

And with one flight a week, it makes it the easiest of targets for competitors interested in keeping new entrants out of the market. The existing carriers only have to spoil their yields on one day, on flight and US is going to have to compete with the loss-leader fares. Bad move.

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Allow me to disagree. Good move.

The fact that the fare is once a week means that US is not attempting to fully compete and steal business away. The flight is a leisure flight with prices set where US will set them. The flight is also based upon the convenience factor of departing from LGA instead of JFK.

For those passengers that are US FFs, want to stay with US, but were pursuaded by the fact that AA and JB had non-stoppers out of JFK, this direct appeals to them.

This was a smart move.

RowUnderDCA

Jul 17 2003, 08:08 AM

Didn't someone post that SJU was just barely within the current LGA perimeter? If it isn't maybe the Feds have a deal where they just don't look that closely at what the Port does. Oh well.

Don't get me wrong, I think it's fine that U is going to fly the route. I just don't think that the Port or any local government should be able to tell airlines where they can fly without a legitimate proprietary interest that trumps interstate or international commerce (such as a clear perimeter-type rule that segregates traffic within a multi-airport system that experiences congestion).

Ch. 12

Jul 17 2003, 09:29 AM

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On 7/17/2003 1:37:27 PM ITRADE wrote:

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Allow me to disagree. Good move.

The fact that the fare is once a week means that US is not attempting to fully compete and steal business away. The flight is a leisure flight with prices set where US will set them. The flight is also based upon the convenience factor of departing from LGA instead of JFK.

For those passengers that are US FFs, want to stay with US, but were pursuaded by the fact that AA and JB had non-stoppers out of JFK, this direct appeals to them.

This was a smart move.

---------------

My point isn''t that there won''t be demand. The issue is that US will be forced to set fares wherever jetBlue or AA set theirs (or at least within close proximity) therefore they will not be "prices set where US will set them" but rather prices set where AA will set them. Due to that, I will venture to say that all carriers flights at this time slot on Saturdays will be money losers. AA and JB can absorb these losses throughout the rest of their extensive schedule during the remainder of the week. US has to absorb them into the rest of their system...an added cost that they currently don''t need. U isn''t in the position to slash fares to rock-bottom levels while taking on LCC''s head-on and still turn a profit.

Bad Move.

phllax

Jul 17 2003, 09:14 AM

FYI, there is no perimeter rule on Saturday. That is why AA and UA were able to offer Saturday only flights to the Colorado ski resorts years past.

757fixer

Jul 17 2003, 10:20 AM

I think BDL to SJU would be a good choice.There is a large hispanic population in this area.Years ago we use to have a BDL-PHL-SJU flight that did well.Then came AA with a daily nonstop and in typical US fashion,why compete when you can run.Now AA has two or three flights a day.

weatherman

Jul 17 2003, 11:59 AM

I think PVD could easily support daily nonstop service to SJU. I think U should at least consider a Sat only service at first. Yields should be good on the route. I think AA really should look at PVD - SJU and PVD - MIA.

BDLDFW

Jul 17 2003, 02:36 PM

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Then came AA with a daily nonstop and in typical US fashion,why compete when you can run.
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What do you mean "Then came AA"? AA has flown BDL-SJU for at least 15 years. Has U even been in SJU that long?

LGA777

Jul 17 2003, 04:12 PM

The JFK-SJU market has less capacity in it now than in many years past and yet the demand for NYC-SJU market is HUGE and
not just the cruise market. US will do very well with this flight and if it was not for the perimenter rule it would probably be daily, and in the future who knows. Getting the NY and NJ Port Authority to waive SJU would be much more likely than the LGA to LAX and SFO service that was discussed in another thread a few weeks ago.

N628AU

Jul 17 2003, 06:52 PM

Ch. 12...

With all the bad that has occured, I have not seen any of the new Carribean on Ireland flying seem to miss the mark. I''ll give the Keystone Kops in CCY this one. If it keeps US FFs happy alone, it will be worth it.

USA320Pilot

Jul 17 2003, 08:03 PM

Itrade:

Your Bite me post was great.

Chip

757fixer

Jul 18 2003, 02:17 AM

I don''t know how long AA has been flying BDL to SJU.But I belive it was about 8 years ago it became a non-stop.At that time we had a one-stop thru PHL.And like I said,we didn''t even try to compete.Just left with a wimper.

BDLDFW

Jul 18 2003, 01:20 AM

FWIW, AA has been flying BDL-SJU nonstop since around 87 or 88, and until a few years ago with the A300.

ITRADE

Jul 18 2003, 02:47 AM

Folks need to remember that a part of the forumla for AA''s flights out of non-hub cities to SJU is not only the fact that certain cities may have a large contingent of Puerto Rican ex-pats, but also that AA has a hub or focus city at SJU. Thus, a lot of passengers are not SJU O/Ders but are connecting to SKB, ANU, BGI, and the like.

ITRADE

Jul 18 2003, 02:04 AM

Whats the distance from LGA to DEN? UA has 5x dailys to DEN.

sdavis29

Jul 18 2003, 03:06 AM

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On 7/18/2003 8:28:22 AM ITRADE wrote:

Whats the distance from LGA to DEN? UA has 5x dailys to DEN.

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LGA-DEN
degrees: 278
nautical miles: 1413
statute miles: 1606
kilometers: 2274

LGA-SJU
degrees: 161
nautical miles: 1408
statute miles: 1591
kilometers: 2253

source
http://www.mompswebdesign.com/webtools/airport.html

ITRADE

Jul 18 2003, 02:18 AM

Hmmm....Wonder if its possible to do a slot-swap without breaking any grandfathering clauses.

UA gives US one slot for daily LGA-SJU service and US gives UA one or two slots for ORD service - or something like that.

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